General Carowinds discussion
By Coasterphreak
#104323
I think a Calico River Rapids-style conversion for RRR is pretty unlikely, since the ride only operates roughly 14 weeks a year versus Bigfoot which operates almost year round. I doubt Cedar Fair would be willing to make that kind of investment outside of the water park.
By Cameron
#104324
I could see that as a reason and understand that but honestly, if they don't plan on doing anything with it then I'd say remove it.

It is currently taking up a huge piece of prime real estate.
By uscbandfan
#104325
Considering the fact that the park has limited "water rides" outside of the water park, I think RRR is hanging around awhile. That, accompanied with the fact that it is immensely popular. People want to be refreshed without having to put on a bathing suit. Losing WWF really hampers that and has greatly increased the line length at RRR.

The only way I would see removing it is if they replaced it with another water ride. Honestly, I would keep it and refurbish it and also add a state of the art log flume to bookend the park over in the dino area. (and add TONS of foliage to make the ride "through the trees".)

If you want space for a new coaster, I'd go with expanding the lake and replacing Vortex and Nighthawk in 4 to 5 years with a signature center-of-the-park ride. (With the investment in Copperhead, it will probably be that long anyway).
By Christopher Mallis
#104599
Koallinbear wrote:Hoping we get the firehawk trains for a smoother ride. Nighthawk has great bones, it just needs a better load/unload situation and the current ride is so rough that it is not enjoyable.

While kings island is completely destroying the coaster, the trains are safe and are sitting in the carts that they do for the off season. They probably are shipping them off to Carowinds later.
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By cwgator
#104607
^Why wouldn't they? It's pretty much common knowledge that they are supposed to be sent to Carowinds.

If you're referring to a smoother ride, that would be a toss-up as different trains don't always mean a better ride. Firehawk was very smooth in comparison to Nighthawk when I rode in June.
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By tarheel1231
#105015
This is from Reddit, but I figured it would be a pretty good way to forecast future rides and attractions:


1)BROADEN THE GUEST EXPERIENCE:

-Existing inventory of thrill rides allows for spacing out larger investments over a longer period of time

-Near-term, less capital intensive investments to focus on interactive and immersive family attractions, special events, concerts and outdoor gathering spaces

-Consistent spending and updates across all parks on annual basis provides greater hedge against weather patterns in any one market

-Smaller investments foster more nimble decisions based on changing consumer tastes / demands



2)EXPAND SEASON PASS PROGRAM

-12 month payment plan

-loyalty/rewards program



3)Increase Market Penetration thru Targeted Marketing

- Allocate marketing spend towards audiences producing the most attractive returns, rather than more mature segments

- Near-term focus on driving incremental visits from tourism markets; initial focus on Knott’s Berry Farm (KBF) and the Southern California market

- Broaden our entertainment offerings through immersive limited-time events for stronger appeal among Gen X and young adults

4)Pursue Adjacent Development

- Hotels/Cabins expansion

- Amateur sports facilities and partnerships to drive incremental attendance and out-of-park revenue

- Complementary commercial development opportunities in retail, dining and entertainment.
By Grobble
#105019
I posted that, I follow the financials. Anyone who is really interested should go thru the investor presentation that accompanied the conf call. Also, read the transcript of the conf call which gives some more "color" to the outline. Also, CF dropped some interesting tidbit during on the conf call, like Knott's did 6M annual visitors.
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By tarheel1231
#105020
Some statements from the transcript:

Projects currently in process including new 129 room, Springhill Suites Hotel adjacent to our Carowinds Park in Charlotte, North Carolina and a new 150,000 square foot indoor amateur sports facility overlooking our Cedar Point Amusement Park in Sandusky, Ohio. Both of these are scheduled to open during the fourth quarter 2019 and we’re extremely excited about the opportunity that both projects represent in their respective markets.


For 2019, we will be investing approximately $140 million in infrastructure and marketable new rise in attractions. We anticipate investing another $30 million to $40 million in incremental development projects including the Charlotte Hotel, the Sandusky Indoor Sports Center and additional employee housing facilities at several of our parks.


Nothing too revealing or unknown, but we can expect the hotel to open between October and December of this year.
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By gabed
#105021
Grobble wrote:Knott's did 6M annual visitors.


I get it’s a year round park but good God.

tarheel1231 wrote:
For 2019, we will be investing approximately $140 million in infrastructure and marketable new rise in attractions. We anticipate investing another $30 million to $40 million in incremental development projects including the Charlotte Hotel, the Sandusky Indoor Sports Center and additional employee housing facilities at several of our parks.



Wonder if that massive amount spent on the hotel and Sandusky project is why we saw very little invested into the other parks. I know very little about how these decisions are made. Anybody with more knowledge able to confirm or debunk this?
By Grobble
#105022
Insight comes possibly from these statements for 2020.

The great examples of rollercoasters that were impactful during the year -- but we can continue to leverage those for many years in our marketing campaigns.

They also seem to view Knott's as the prototype.

"Knott's Berry Farm has been a site that we've not invested in large signature steel coasters. What we have invested in is events, and this family attractions, immersive Knott's has grown, as we've said, to over 6 million people a year, probably the most attended regional theme park in the world now."

Probably expect expansion of events at Carowinds, they have probably the best weather across the chain, besides the Cali parks. Also, makes the renovation of the Rapids, like done at Knotts very likely addition.
By Grobble
#105023
gabed wrote:
Grobble wrote:Knott's did 6M annual visitors.


I get it’s a year round park but good God.

tarheel1231 wrote:
For 2019, we will be investing approximately $140 million in infrastructure and marketable new rise in attractions. We anticipate investing another $30 million to $40 million in incremental development projects including the Charlotte Hotel, the Sandusky Indoor Sports Center and additional employee housing facilities at several of our parks.



Wonder if that massive amount spent on the hotel and Sandusky project is why we saw very little invested into the other parks. I know very little about how these decisions are made. Anybody with more knowledge able to confirm or debunk this?


It's clear people have been under estimating Knotts for a while. TEA had them just above 4M in 2017, no way they went up 2M in a year. The 2017 estimate was off substantially.

Cedar Fair always has separated what they call core investments/marketable attractions in the parks, which counts as "in park revenue" ; from incremental building of hotels or the sports complex, which is counted in the financials as "out of park revenue."

Core Capex has been stated for sometime at minimum 10% of Gross revenue. 140M of 1.35B revenue just over 10%. The hotel, dorms, sports complex are not coming at the expense of the parks.
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By tarheel1231
#105024
Grobble wrote:They also seem to view Knott's as the prototype.

Probably expect expansion of events at Carowinds, they have probably the best weather across the chain, besides the Cali parks. Also, makes the renovation of the Rapids, like done at Knotts very likely addition.


Very good news if true. I’ve said for the past few years that I’d rather see Carowinds become more like Knott’s than Cedar Point. A diverse ride portfolio and a focus on family attractions is exactly what the park needs.
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By yawetag
#105025
Grobble wrote:Probably expect expansion of events at Carowinds, they have probably the best weather across the chain, besides the Cali parks. Also, makes the renovation of the Rapids, like done at Knotts very likely addition.


Depends on what they want Carowinds to be. If they want it to be more of a family spot (like Knotts) than a thrill spot (like Cedar Point), then I'd agree. If it's the reverse, then I don't see them doing it.

Obviously, both paths have to include something for the "minimal" side, or you'd shoot yourself in the foot. Make it too family-friendly and you lose all the thrill seekers, too thrilling and you lose the families.

I will agree that Carowinds is in the perfect position to make that choice. You've got several coasters across all levels of thrill, three of which are less than 10 years old and at the top of that thrill list. There's also plenty of rides for kids of all ages, and even the ability of "stepping up" through your coasters (which Six Flags St. Louis didn't have - and kept me from going there once I had kids).

Since Carowinds is at this almost middle ground, they can make a conscious decision to tilt the scales one way or another. Whichever they choose, though, has to be purposeful and obvious; swerving back and forth may have a negative effect on potential park-goers, especially those with younger kids or no kids.
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By gabed
#105026
I see Carowinds borrowing aspects from both Knotts and Cedar Point. Seems like since this whole investment thing started back in 2014, there’s been an even focus on thrills and theming.

What does worry me a little is that it sounds like they’re planning on increasing the gaps between coasters at all their major parks.
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